Announcement National Dex Monotype Suspect #1: Kiss Me More (Spectrier)

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maroon

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RMT & Mono Leader

:sv/spectrier:
Hey everyone, the council has decided that we want Spectrier to be the first suspect of the generation. It has cemented itself as an offensive staple for Ghost teams due to its blistering offensive stats, strong STAB, great offensive coverage in Draining Kiss, and defensive/offensive utility moves. Draining Kiss is a new move to Gen 9 which greatly bolsters its ability to sweep. It can run a more defensive set of Calm Mind + Will-O-Wisp + Hex + Draining Kiss, allowing Spectrier to setup on more Pokemon such as Corviknight. The bulky Spectrier sets allow it to be menacing to slower types such as Poison, which can find it difficult to break Spectrier, especially behind a Substitute. Spectrier can also run a Nasty Plot set with nukes in Ghostium Z (Shadow Ball), to have a strong STAB nuke alongside Draining Kiss, which can take care of Dark-types that could otherwise tank a +2 attack. Normalium Z isn't used as much do to the fact it has access to Draining Kiss now, which can hit the Dark-types such as Galarian Moltres. Spectrier is an incredible wallbreaker that can be hard to stop once it starts it sweep.

However, on the other hand Ghosts support this generation is quite frankly not good. This severely limits Spectrier's ability to easily setup, making it hard for Spectrier to start a sweep. It relies on teammates such as Skeledirge and Mega Sableye to spread status around, while not having its usual SV teammates in Flutter Mane and Dragapult. This also means there is more of a burden on Spectrier to sweep, as Gengar and Mimikyu, while great are not amazing given the variety of Pokemon available in the tier. Additionally, the Ghost typing while carried by Spectrier can still barely hold its own weight in the metagame.

Between the pros of using Spectrier, while having to deal with the cons of dealing with the Ghost-type, the National Dex Monotype council thought this would be an appropriate first suspect for the generation!

Feel free to post in this thread with your thoughts on Spectrier in National Dex Monotype. You are encouraged to post replays to prove your point.

In order to cast a vote in this suspect test, you must participate on the [Gen 9] National Dex Monotype ladder in which Spectrier will continue to be allowed. You must make a new account to ladder with. This account's registration date must be at earliest the day this suspect begins. You must prefix your account name with the tag: NDMSG9 in order for your account to qualify. Tagging Kris and Marty to implement this on the ladder!

Acceptable:
NDMSG9 maroon

Unacceptable:
maroon NDMSG9

Suspect Test Information
  • This suspect test will counts towards the tiering contributor badge!
  • Reading this is mandatory to participate in the suspect test. The voting requirements are a minimum GXE of 78 with at least 50 games played. In addition, you may play 1 less game for every 0.2 GXE you have above 78 GXE, down to a minimum of 30 games at a GXE of 82. Also, doing more than 50 games to reach 78 GXE will suffice.
  • GXEminimum games
    7850
    78.249
    78.448
    78.647
    78.846
    7945
    79.244
    79.443
    79.642
    79.841
    8040
    80.239
    80.438
    80.637
    80.836
    8135
    81.234
    81.433
    81.632
    81.831
    8230

The suspect test will last two weeks until Wednesday July 19th @ 11:59 PM EST (GMT -4). You will then have three days to cast your vote. Spectrier will require a 60% majority of voters in favor of banning it in order for it to be banned from Monotype.

Upon meeting the requirements, you must post proof of the qualification in the Voter Identification thread, which is separate from this thread and will be created closer to the end of the suspect. Do not post your proof in this discussion thread.

You may use this thread to discuss this Spectrier suspect or ask for clarification for any questions you may have.

You may not use this thread to post one-liners or discuss topics unrelated to this specific suspect, such as possible future suspects.

Please stay respectful when you post and follow all National Dex Monotype forum rules. Please also make sure to follow the National Dex Monotype tiering philosophy found here.
 
Gonna start by saying I don't really know this tier but im super glad that spec is getting suspected any tier free of spec is a good tier.

To avoid one-liner what are the counterplay options available to this mon?
 
Hey yall!

The little horsey that could should have its last ride! Spectrier is one of the most powerful and unbalanced pokemon in NDM as of right now. It's ability to just destroy types that don't have a viable solution to all of its sets outside of select few types you are pretty much trampled! Nasty Plot/CM with the Z move is almost unwallable for most types that don't have a scarfer that outspeeds it AND KOs or its fellow snowballer blacephalon. Which even in the very fast space of gen 9, is still quite hard to come by for most types. This doesn't account for the scarf set with hazards that are almost impossible to get off due to a gholdengo being on most teams and the ghost type blocking rapid spin. It's a pokemon that has no risk and full reward in using. This doesn't even take into account will-o-wisp/hex sets that make it too unpredictable. There's a fine line between being an expectational mon and being a broken one. An exceptional mon still has counter play, a broken one doesn't. Whenever I build a team, I do have to run it through what I call the Spectrier test. If it can't beat a particular set then i'm risking a complete auto lost which otherwise would not be the case, had it not be there. Spectrier does have counters on some types, but a counter on 4 compared to all of those others types is unacceptable.

Thanks!
 
Ok, some people knoe me as a Ghost user since Gen V, so I will try not to be biased here, even though seeing Annihilape and Flutter Mane being banned before (for good reasons for each one, I know, but I miss them haha)

Well, Spectrier should not be banned for some reasons I didn't see in the post above:

1- It HAS counters, I mean, every bulky mon that takes neutral to ghost can pretty much tank and knockout it without much problem, even with CM set (the same as mentioned above). Will-o-Wisp helps against physical ones, for sure, but the ones that can knockout it outspeeding it just ignore the fact I will try to burn them.

2- A lot of Dark types can counter it, and I'm not talking about Dark teams matchup. On Grass Meowscarada can kill it without problems, since Meowscara pretty much runs scarf, and scarf sets can't kill it with Draining Kiss unboosted from Grim Neigh. Ground has Ting-Lu, that can tank everything and hit back. Just saying some examples.

3- Draining Kiss has low base power, it's not like Dazzling Gleam or Moonblast coverage. Without Grim Neigh or CM/NP boost, it can't kill anything right away from 100% health, and almost anytime I could just use a boost move like one of these twos I mentioned, or sub, it would be killed anyway by a faster or bulky mon that can take Hex/SB and Draining Kiss. I know that one of the best things about this move is its healing factor, that synergises well with sub, but since it has low base power, it will not heal much without boosts.

4- Its sets are very predictable, I think scarf/specs sets and CM/NP sets like the mentioned above are its only viable sets, since it doesn't have a large movepool. Maybe on low ladder matches it can sweep teams with ease, but in higher tiers you must manage its use with caution, since it can be KOe'd easily.

These are my reasons to why it shouldn't be banned, but I would like to say a thing or two, that I will say and repeat, should not count as a reason to not ban it:
Ghost is this gen on Nat Dex Mono is very weak. While we have many more options, we lack support, we lack good role users like spinner/defogger, tanks, bulky supports and so on. And we can't access our strongest options, because they are too much overpower in this meta, like M-Gengar, Dragapult, Flutter Mane and Annihilape. With Spectrier banned, goes the whole type viability, since people that do not play Ghost thinks M-Sableye and Mimikyu are exceptional mons in this tier and they are just enough to play the type and manage our counters and bad MU, while other types has they strongest options at their fullest.

Well that's it. Some people asked me as a main ghost user for years to give my two cents here, even though I don't like to give my opinion to others. But I will be happy to people read this and discuss politely as I tried to be here.
 
On Grass Meowscarada can kill it without problems, since Meowscara pretty much runs scarf, and scarf sets can't kill it with Draining Kiss unboosted from Grim Neigh.
As a mono grass main I'd like to chip in a little here and say this is a bit fallacious. Yes, it can revenge kill without problems--however it cannot switch in safely at all. It's cleanly 2hkoed by scarf Draining Kiss, loses hard to Sub Wisp sets if sub is intact (U-Turn is an unfavorable roll to break sub, burned Knock doesn't kill at 88 [ghost as a matchup being an instant loss if meow gets statused notwithstanding]) Additionally, outside of Meowscarada Spectrier has a good matchup into Mono Grass: Ferrothorn and Cradily are subwisp fodder, Rillaboom, Breloom, Iron Leaves, Lilligant-Hisui, and other physical attackers are deathly afraid of wisp even if they deny setup otherwise, Whimsicott and M-Venu are too weak to stop it from consistently setting up, and Celebi and Brambleghast get nuked by ghost stab anyway. Spectrier doesn't 6-0 mono grass on preview or anything but it's not like Grass is 115% safe into it either, as long as you don't take kills without a sub up.

This does not mention Meowscarada's weakness to any form of hazards, whether that's Froslass's Spikes or Ferrothorn/Cradily's hazards being bounced back. Grass is tight on removal and Gholdengo is difficult enough to break as is, any hazards going up is quite bad for Meowscarada (who comes in a LOT vs Ghost). While I understand your line of thinking with this comment it fails to portray what Spectrier actually does in the matchup.
 

Sunnyboi0

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Ok, some people knoe me as a Ghost user since Gen V, so I will try not to be biased here, even though seeing Annihilape and Flutter Mane being banned before (for good reasons for each one, I know, but I miss them haha)

Well, Spectrier should not be banned for some reasons I didn't see in the post above:

1- It HAS counters, I mean, every bulky mon that takes neutral to ghost can pretty much tank and knockout it without much problem, even with CM set (the same as mentioned above). Will-o-Wisp helps against physical ones, for sure, but the ones that can knockout it outspeeding it just ignore the fact I will try to burn them.

2- A lot of Dark types can counter it, and I'm not talking about Dark teams matchup. On Grass Meowscarada can kill it without problems, since Meowscara pretty much runs scarf, and scarf sets can't kill it with Draining Kiss unboosted from Grim Neigh. Ground has Ting-Lu, that can tank everything and hit back. Just saying some examples.

3- Draining Kiss has low base power, it's not like Dazzling Gleam or Moonblast coverage. Without Grim Neigh or CM/NP boost, it can't kill anything right away from 100% health, and almost anytime I could just use a boost move like one of these twos I mentioned, or sub, it would be killed anyway by a faster or bulky mon that can take Hex/SB and Draining Kiss. I know that one of the best things about this move is its healing factor, that synergises well with sub, but since it has low base power, it will not heal much without boosts.

4- Its sets are very predictable, I think scarf/specs sets and CM/NP sets like the mentioned above are its only viable sets, since it doesn't have a large movepool. Maybe on low ladder matches it can sweep teams with ease, but in higher tiers you must manage its use with caution, since it can be KOe'd easily.

These are my reasons to why it shouldn't be banned, but I would like to say a thing or two, that I will say and repeat, should not count as a reason to not ban it:
Ghost is this gen on Nat Dex Mono is very weak. While we have many more options, we lack support, we lack good role users like spinner/defogger, tanks, bulky supports and so on. And we can't access our strongest options, because they are too much overpower in this meta, like M-Gengar, Dragapult, Flutter Mane and Annihilape. With Spectrier banned, goes the whole type viability, since people that do not play Ghost thinks M-Sableye and Mimikyu are exceptional mons in this tier and they are just enough to play the type and manage our counters and bad MU, while other types has they strongest options at their fullest.

Well that's it. Some people asked me as a main ghost user for years to give my two cents here, even though I don't like to give my opinion to others. But I will be happy to people read this and discuss politely as I tried to be here.
Alright let's break this down point by point.
1. "counters" is pushing it. There are few and far between for this one. At most you have checks. But the problem is, with its set diversity, those checks can be messed up in some way. Let's take your definition of a bulky mon that can take a neutral hit. Heatran is a popular example. Okay, well, this can lose to a sub cm set and the heatran can no longer break sub (if you mention magma storm you are challenging rng very heavily considering its inconsistency and miss chance). Also, it seems that spectrier's bulk is underestimated. This thing still has a base 100 hp, which gets overlooked a lot, and while small, can affect what it lives and whatnot. Now the point you mention about faster physical attackers. What you neglected is the fact that they can't switch in safely for the most part. This means in order for you to revenge kill with a physical attacker, you'd probably have had to sac something to get that positioning. And this doesn't consider the fact it may have subbed on a slower passive mon, then got a kill, followed by another kill after as you try to remove sub. At the very least, it guarantees a kill in that scenario, meaning significant damage has been done at this point. There has to be consideration of how it has to be switched into carefully or answered while it usually can abuse the presence of slower passive mons at its own accord. Overall, what is neglected with this point is the fact that other interactions of the game have not been considered. You're only focusing on 1v1s. What about the scenarios where spectrier gets in safely on something else and then punishes that target hard, before you could revenge kill. It's not that easy.
2. I agree a dark team can beat spectrier, but dark type mons on other teams, don't have it easy. You mention meowscarada, but what if spectrier switches into something slower and passive beforehand, proceeds to say, burn it with will o wisp (e.g. ferro or cradily), then subs, uses cm. That mon likely loses and by the time you try to revenge kill, you're already losing more resources on that mon as well. Not to mention, you're not reliably switching in meowscarada to begin with. Ting lu maybe, but it can't repeatedly take hits long term and doesn't appreciate getting burned. Whirlwind only delays the inevitable problem. Alolan on muk doesn't appreciate getting burned (and considering that's their only check on poison to switch into ghost moves, that's not ideal), and risks getting worn down over time. Again, like the last point, you didn't consider other interactions. This time however, you also didn't consider that spectrier has the versatility in its sets to ruin its checks and how all these scenarios can go wrong. I have to bring up this example. There was a game in ndwc. Fighting vs ghost. And av iron hands would be that spectrier. However it got to a point where av iron hands got too chipped, and spectrier had an endgame where at plus 2 special attack, and plus 1 speed courtesy of a salac berry, it just won off one interaction. It's hard to account for every set spectrier runs on every team that you run against it. It could potentially have a way to ruin your team and they're all viable. And it takes a lot of strain to keep that in check, which is not only restraining on teambuilding, but gameplay as well.
3. Draining kiss may have low base power, but this is offset by spectrier being able to use nasty plot, and the fact that the targets it hits still take a decent amount. Sometimes draining kiss doesn't have to kill since it gives spectrier recovery which then may allow it to live vs the mon in an interaction and thus win the interaction next turn. Your experiences you mentioned about how it gets killed anyways, not to throw shade but it might be a reflection on how you didn't position it correctly. That or the opponent may have had such an aggressive team to not let you get that positioning. But if the latter were the case, then it means that players are forced to run such team archetypes in order to check it, which gets to a point where it becomes restricting, and thus unhealthy for the meta.
4. Just because sets are predictable, doesn't mean they're bad. Far from it. Just because a ferrothorn clicks hazards and leech seed 90% of the time, doesn't mean it's bad. You still have to respect it. Same case here. You still have to address the fact that np sub sets can snowball. And it still has enough versatility in its sets where it isn't as predictable as you think (I explained this in the scenarios above). Also, skill levels doesn't matter too much since when a mon in question is being looked at for a ban we assume all these interactions take place at top level, where all of them are played optimally and both players in the battle know the matchup

All of this doesn't even take into account the support spectrier gets. Sure it may not be egregious as say, mega mawile's support when it was allowed, but its support is still good enough as is where its very potent, the major thing about it being unhealthy is more of a spectrier thing if anything. Some HO ghost teams can run spikes with froslass on lead, then have gholdengo block defog, making dealing with spectrier long term harder. Balance teams may struggle since the combination of mega sableye and gholdengo shuts down passive play, and with the assortment of decent defensive options on ghost, it's not as easy to break, enough to enable spectrier, and let it do the rest for a game (which mind you, the opponent has to keep in the back of their mind since they cannot allow it to snowball at all or they have a good chance to lose).

A final point. Spectrier may not be as egregious or outright broken as some of the mons banned earlier. But that doesn't have to be the stands or limit for why a mon should be banned. If it's restricting enough on teambuilding and potentially even gameplay, then it's unhealthy, which can be the reasons for a ban.

P.S. that final point you have. I know you made that disclaimer about how it shouldn't be considered a point for why spectrier shouldn't be banned, but at that point, why even include it. That's you trying not to show bias but not doing a good job at it.
 
As a mono grass main I'd like to chip in a little here and say this is a bit fallacious. Yes, it can revenge kill without problems--however it cannot switch in safely at all. It's cleanly 2hkoed by scarf Draining Kiss, loses hard to Sub Wisp sets if sub is intact (U-Turn is an unfavorable roll to break sub, burned Knock doesn't kill at 88 [ghost as a matchup being an instant loss if meow gets statused notwithstanding]) Additionally, outside of Meowscarada Spectrier has a good matchup into Mono Grass: Ferrothorn and Cradily are subwisp fodder, Rillaboom, Breloom, Iron Leaves, Lilligant-Hisui, and other physical attackers are deathly afraid of wisp even if they deny setup otherwise, Whimsicott and M-Venu are too weak to stop it from consistently setting up, and Celebi and Brambleghast get nuked by ghost stab anyway. Spectrier doesn't 6-0 mono grass on preview or anything but it's not like Grass is 115% safe into it either, as long as you don't take kills without a sub up.

This does not mention Meowscarada's weakness to any form of hazards, whether that's Froslass's Spikes or Ferrothorn/Cradily's hazards being bounced back. Grass is tight on removal and Gholdengo is difficult enough to break as is, any hazards going up is quite bad for Meowscarada (who comes in a LOT vs Ghost). While I understand your line of thinking with this comment it fails to portray what Spectrier actually does in the matchup.
I agree with all your points. But I just said about a big counter of it that is Meowscarada, and that we have to agree. Sure it can't switch in safely, but neither I can with ghosts against grass, even if Meowscara isn't around anymore. But, yeah, it's a good MU.
 

Sunnyboi0

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I agree with all your points. But I just said about a big counter of it that is Meowscarada, and that we have to agree. Sure it can't switch in safely, but neither I can with ghosts against grass, even if Meowscara isn't around anymore. But, yeah, it's a good MU.
I don't want to be too technical, but using the term "counter" loosely isn't the right way to go about it. The definition of a counter in this context is a mon that can switchin and proceed to win the 1v1. But as we've proven, meowscarada doesn't switchin.
 
But I just said about a big counter of it that is Meowscarada, and that we have to agree.
What I'm saying is that by definition Meowscarada is not a counter. It simply cannot switch in on anything that isn't Shadow Ball or Hex. It is a check--however due to the sub wisp interaction it's only a check if there's no Substitute up, otherwise it straight up just loses.

Additionally it's not like you can't answer everything else on Grass. Unlike Meowscarada Rillaboom is quite slow (and as such has reliable offensive counterplay), Breloom only poses a legitimate threat if it's bulldoze and even then M-Sable comes in somewhat comfortably, Ferrothorn, Celebi, Iron Leaves and M-Venu fail to make significant progress vs Dirge, Whimsicott is never breaking Gholdengo ever, and Zarude is legitimate but quite difficult to fit in my opinion. I mention that a statused Meowscarada is grounds to forfeit and I stand by that, you are never breaking through Ghost without getting broken through first if Meowscarada gets burned or paralyzed.
 
Alright let's break this down point by point.
1. "counters" is pushing it. There are few and far between for this one. At most you have checks. But the problem is, with its set diversity, those checks can be messed up in some way. Let's take your definition of a bulky mon that can take a neutral hit. Heatran is a popular example. Okay, well, this can lose to a sub cm set and the heatran can no longer break sub (if you mention magma storm you are challenging rng very heavily considering its inconsistency and miss chance). Also, it seems that spectrier's bulk is underestimated. This thing still has a base 100 hp, which gets overlooked a lot, and while small, can affect what it lives and whatnot. Now the point you mention about faster physical attackers. What you neglected is the fact that they can't switch in safely for the most part. This means in order for you to revenge kill with a physical attacker, you'd probably have had to sac something to get that positioning. And this doesn't consider the fact it may have subbed on a slower passive mon, then got a kill, followed by another kill after as you try to remove sub. At the very least, it guarantees a kill in that scenario, meaning significant damage has been done at this point. There has to be consideration of how it has to be switched into carefully or answered while it usually can abuse the presence of slower passive mons at its own accord. Overall, what is neglected with this point is the fact that other interactions of the game have not been considered. You're only focusing on 1v1s. What about the scenarios where spectrier gets in safely on something else and then punishes that target hard, before you could revenge kill. It's not that easy.
2. I agree a dark team can beat spectrier, but dark type mons on other teams, don't have it easy. You mention meowscarada, but what if spectrier switches into something slower and passive beforehand, proceeds to say, burn it with will o wisp (e.g. ferro or cradily), then subs, uses cm. That mon likely loses and by the time you try to revenge kill, you're already losing more resources on that mon as well. Not to mention, you're not reliably switching in meowscarada to begin with. Ting lu maybe, but it can't repeatedly take hits long term and doesn't appreciate getting burned. Whirlwind only delays the inevitable problem. Alolan on muk doesn't appreciate getting burned (and considering that's their only check on poison to switch into ghost moves, that's not ideal), and risks getting worn down over time. Again, like the last point, you didn't consider other interactions. This time however, you also didn't consider that spectrier has the versatility in its sets to ruin its checks and how all these scenarios can go wrong. I have to bring up this example. There was a game in ndwc. Fighting vs ghost. And av iron hands would be that spectrier. However it got to a point where av iron hands got too chipped, and spectrier had an endgame where at plus 2 special attack, and plus 1 speed courtesy of a salac berry, it just won off one interaction. It's hard to account for every set spectrier runs on every team that you run against it. It could potentially have a way to ruin your team and they're all viable. And it takes a lot of strain to keep that in check, which is not only restraining on teambuilding, but gameplay as well.
3. Draining kiss may have low base power, but this is offset by spectrier being able to use nasty plot, and the fact that the targets it hits still take a decent amount. Sometimes draining kiss doesn't have to kill since it gives spectrier recovery which then may allow it to live vs the mon in an interaction and thus win the interaction next turn. Your experiences you mentioned about how it gets killed anyways, not to throw shade but it might be a reflection on how you didn't position it correctly. That or the opponent may have had such an aggressive team to not let you get that positioning. But if the latter were the case, then it means that players are forced to run such team archetypes in order to check it, which gets to a point where it becomes restricting, and thus unhealthy for the meta.
4. Just because sets are predictable, doesn't mean they're bad. Far from it. Just because a ferrothorn clicks hazards and leech seed 90% of the time, doesn't mean it's bad. You still have to respect it. Same case here. You still have to address the fact that np sub sets can snowball. And it still has enough versatility in its sets where it isn't as predictable as you think (I explained this in the scenarios above). Also, skill levels doesn't matter too much since when a mon in question is being looked at for a ban we assume all these interactions take place at top level, where all of them are played optimally and both players in the battle know the matchup

All of this doesn't even take into account the support spectrier gets. Sure it may not be egregious as say, mega mawile's support when it was allowed, but its support is still good enough as is where its very potent, the major thing about it being unhealthy is more of a spectrier thing if anything. Some HO ghost teams can run spikes with froslass on lead, then have gholdengo block defog, making dealing with spectrier long term harder. Balance teams may struggle since the combination of mega sableye and gholdengo shuts down passive play, and with the assortment of decent defensive options on ghost, it's not as easy to break, enough to enable spectrier, and let it do the rest for a game (which mind you, the opponent has to keep in the back of their mind since they cannot allow it to snowball at all or they have a good chance to lose).

A final point. Spectrier may not be as egregious or outright broken as some of the mons banned earlier. But that doesn't have to be the stands or limit for why a mon should be banned. If it's restricting enough on teambuilding and potentially even gameplay, then it's unhealthy, which can be the reasons for a ban.

P.S. that final point you have. I know you made that disclaimer about how it shouldn't be considered a point for why spectrier shouldn't be banned, but at that point, why even include it. That's you trying not to show bias but not doing a good job at it.
I just agreed with you in the majority of things, but let me say some things that maybe I was not clear at all:

1. I didn't account all interactions, this was my fault, but I really didn't want to give more examples, so far. I just think I can give my two cents here and it will get banned or not anyway, as you just said: its presence on this meta is unhealthy for it.

2. I didn't say being predictable means bad. If I made my point like this I apologize. What I meant for predictable is that it can be manageable as you knoe what to expect from it.

3. I just accounted 1v1 scenarios because i tried to see only what can Spectrier alone can do, without its teammates help. Correct ne if I'm wrong, but I never saw a case of a mon being banned because of a teammate synergy.

4. And my last point here, and you will not see me talking on this thread again: I just tried to get something out of my chest about the present state of Ghost as a whole, and I thought this thread would be a good place for me to do it. I could open a new thread just to talk about this? Yeah, but it would aound as just a complaint. And, as I said, I asked to not be considered as a point to not ban Spectrier, and sad to see that even saying so, you were annoyed just to read my statement about it.
 
3. I just accounted 1v1 scenarios because i tried to see only what can Spectrier alone can do, without its teammates help. Correct ne if I'm wrong, but I never saw a case of a mon being banned because of a teammate synergy.
"...along with healing wish support and pivoting from Dragapult and Dragalge which can get Dracovish in safely makes for some very uncompetitive games. Water meanwhile, has several pivots in structures that don’t use rain such as Flip Turn Swampert or Volt Switch Rotom-W, allowing Dracovish to again come in for free and click Fishious Rend with very little drawback." -Dracovish QB, Gen 8 Monotype
" Due to its power, unpredictability, team support, and restriction of a number of types" -Lando-I QB, Gen 8 Monotype
"Of course, it is important to mention Water's great team support as one of the best types in the current metagame. With teammates like Pelipper boosting the already powerful Surging Strikes using Drizzle, Slowking and Slowbro's extremely reliable pivoting using Teleport and ability to damage checks in Toxapex, Amoonguss and Vileplume with Future Sight, and Araquanid to slow down the opposition using Sticky Web,"-Urshifu-R,QB, Gen 8 Monotype
" The number of sets available to it, along with the solid team support that Dark offers with a defensive backbone of Mandibuzz and Tyranitar as well as a Screens setting option in Grimmsnarl means that Urshifu-S is a threat" Urshifu-S Suspect, Gen 8 Monotype
" On either type, Kyurem-B has access to capable partners to help it sweep. On Ice, Alolan Ninetales sets up Aurora Veil in one turn, and on Dragon, Kyurem-B can be paired with a screens setter like Duraludon or even Dragapult. Aurora Veil and screens support make Kyurem-B extremely bulky which means that common revenge killers like Choice Scarf Gengar, Alolan Raichu under Electric Terrain, Excadrill under sand, Choice Scarf Flygon, and Choice Scarf Ditto struggle to beat Kyurem-B, allowing it to set up another Dragon Dance to outspeed the vast majority of the metagame or just beat them on the spot." -Kyurem-B Suspect, Gen 8 Monotype

While these aren't the reasons these mons got banned, they are something that must be taken into consideration when considering whether or not a pokemon is okay. If Spectrier doesn't 6-0 teams alone that doesn't necessarily mean it's a healthy metagame fixture, because it can fall back on the help of it's other teammates to ensure that sweep. It is something one must keep in mind when determining the health of a pokemon.
 

Sunnyboi0

is a Forum Moderatoris a Tiering Contributor
Moderator
I just agreed with you in the majority of things, but let me say some things that maybe I was not clear at all:

1. I didn't account all interactions, this was my fault, but I really didn't want to give more examples, so far. I just think I can give my two cents here and it will get banned or not anyway, as you just said: its presence on this meta is unhealthy for it.

2. I didn't say being predictable means bad. If I made my point like this I apologize. What I meant for predictable is that it can be manageable as you knoe what to expect from it.

3. I just accounted 1v1 scenarios because i tried to see only what can Spectrier alone can do, without its teammates help. Correct ne if I'm wrong, but I never saw a case of a mon being banned because of a teammate synergy.

4. And my last point here, and you will not see me talking on this thread again: I just tried to get something out of my chest about the present state of Ghost as a whole, and I thought this thread would be a good place for me to do it. I could open a new thread just to talk about this? Yeah, but it would aound as just a complaint. And, as I said, I asked to not be considered as a point to not ban Spectrier, and sad to see that even saying so, you were annoyed just to read my statement about it.
Regarding 1v1 scenarios. You have to consider other scenarios. Not just 1v1, because people usually play with a team of 6. Hence why the concept of positioning matters so much in competitive singles. Advantage and disadvantage states can occur as a result (as i explained in my response earlier).

It's also fine to consider team support to a degree because in monotype, a given mon will be limited to one or two types (on our case one), and therefore its not really unrealistic extrapolation to consider what common options may be used to augment the mon in question. We can take mega mawile for example. Overtuned and broken mon obviously. But whether it's easy screens, spikes and terrain support on fairy, or a defensive immunity core and uncontestable hazards with gholdengo on steel, these supports were egregious enough to put mega mawile over the top (to say nothing of the ridiculous and broken strengths it had already).

Lastly, ghost was bad last gen yes. But it's far from bad this gen. Frankly, gholdengo cheats in some mus, skeledirge and hisui zoroark are good additions as well. And it has enough going to remain viable. By no means is it bad.
 
Spectrier is interesting. Maybe my experience/team wasn't the best to really 'exploit' Spectrier ( Zoinks (pokepast.es) for refernce), but laddering with it felt somewhat disappointing at times. If it ever got a job done, it had to heavily rely on teammates weakening and/or statusing many if not all of an opposing line-up, and even times where Spectrier would in theory begin to snowball, its damage lacked just enough to break though that last barrier to secure a win. Something I now know because of laddering is that Draining Kiss can't kill a 4 spD Hydreigon without rocks, and even with rocks, it's less that a 50% chance. In this regard, Spectrier feels alot like Regieleki; on paper, with its teammates, it sounds awful to play against if you don't have the counterplay. But with the counterplay availaibe, weither it be exponentially bulk Pokémon with some sort of offensive pressure (That this gen has graciously allotted to most if not all types), priority spam, phasing, Immunities, or simply denying the necessary avenues the Pokémon needs in order to sweep. Spectrier does have more sets that Eleki, though I'd argue Eleki is on a better type.

Spectrier doesn't immediately 'solve' Ghost's bad Mu's, at least not by itself, and what it does (Or at least what it did for me) would or was facilitated better by other options ghost has. Perhaps with more development and settling of the meta (I think Home brought some pretty big shake ups that are still being felt), perhaps Spectrier will be much prevalant and reveal itself to be much more of an issue that it actually is. Perhaps the initial frustration it causes will have subsided, and the counterplay needed for Spectrier in a post-Kingambit/Blaziken/Espathra world will be more known and mainstream. As of right now, I don't think Spectrier should be banned. At least not yet. It's proven to be a good and viable option for ghost, but it doesn't do anything particularly well that other options do either better or worse, perhaps only stealing sub-hex strategies from Gengar.

I also wrote the Spectier Analysis, so maybe I'm a bit biased lol.

252 SpA Spectrier Draining Kiss vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Hydreigon: 260-308 (80 - 94.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Spectrier Twinkle Tackle (100 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 158-188 (46.3 - 55.1%) -- 64.5% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Spectrier Draining Kiss vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Lopunny-Mega: 124-146 (45.7 - 53.8%) -- 38.7% chance to 2HKO (27.2 - 32.2% recovered)
252 Atk Lopunny-Mega Return vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Spectrier: 261-307 (76.5 - 90%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Spectrier Twinkle Tackle (100 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Vessel of Ruin Ting-Lu: 148-176 (28.7 - 34.2%) -- 99.2% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Spectrier Twinkle Tackle (100 BP) vs. 248 HP / 248+ SpD Assault Vest Muk-Alola: 57-68 (13.8 - 16.4%) -- possible 7HKO
252 SpA Spectrier Twinkle Tackle (100 BP) vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Overqwil: 168-198 (45 - 53%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
252 SpA Spectrier Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Toxapex: 105-124 (34.5 - 40.7%) -- 54.7% chance to 3HKO after Black Sludge recovery
252 SpA Spectrier Twinkle Tackle (100 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Iron Hands: 146-172 (28.5 - 33.5%) -- 0.2% chance to 3HKO
252 SpA Spectrier Twinkle Tackle (100 BP) vs. 0 HP / 252 SpD Iron Hands: 238-282 (53 - 62.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Spectrier Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Zapdos: 156-184 (40.6 - 47.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Spectrier Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Sneasler: 171-202 (56.8 - 67.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Spectrier Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Piloswine: 93-111 (23 - 27.4%) -- 62.7% chance to 4HKO
252 SpA Spectrier Shadow Ball vs. 248 HP / 212+ SpD Scizor-Mega: 106-126 (30.9 - 36.7%) -- 65.8% chance to 3HKO
252 SpA Spectrier Shadow Ball vs. 244 HP / 0 SpD Melmetal: 202-238 (42.7 - 50.4%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Spectrier Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Ferrothorn: 126-148 (35.7 - 42%) -- 89.6% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Spectrier Shadow Ball vs. 248 HP / 84+ SpD Assault Vest Goodra-Hisui: 58-69 (15.9 - 19%) -- possible 6HKO
 
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TTK

No Idea.
is a Community Contributor
With about just under 3 hours left until the suspect test finishes, I wanted to get my thoughts out regarding Spectrier once I got reqs because I would say all I needed to say yet I would have no impact on whatever it stays or not? Not based.

I feel like a distinction that I have going into this suspect is tour play vs ladder play. Both of these are quite different, for anyone that has had the opportunity to play this format in the highest level of tournament play and plays ladder, or plays ladder and watches the high level tournament play. Spectrier seems to be hella broken in one of these, and it's not ladder play. Ghost is... interesting to say the least on ladder. You hardly see it, and when you do, it always seems like it doesn't have overwhelming matchups, it's often on the backfoot trying to handle rain water or even breaking steel for example. What I will say is that, Spectrier is Ghost's best mon and unfortunately, I will be voting ban on it.

People have stated before me what Spectrier does and why it's so strong, so I won't repeat everything. All I'll say is that Spectrier's Sub NP set is frankly bonkers. Dude just beats every single defensive team on most types bar Ting-Lu Ground, like I found myself in a situation using my initial water team I used for reqs without my boy Dondozo (worst idea ever), spec just subbed up, set up, bro even had taunt on it so Pex couldn't haze. How could I expect Taunt? No one runs Taunt xD. You don't know how bad the Spectrier is until it gets going and I just feel like in conjunction with its speed tier and initial power, sometimes the meta just cannot keep up with it.


Couldn't find the replay but I uploaded a vid a while back of Spectrier just beating poison. 5 months later, post home, it still does the same exact thing. Sorry if this post is all over the place, kinda want to speedrun it because need sleep + working later today.
 
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